Curse

nunix · Aug 30, 2009, 06:23 AM // 06:23

After spending a couple of hours off-and-on today trying to get a group together for this, and three abortive H&H attempts the day before, I am looking for help, here. -.- Necro primary, have all secondaries unlocked, all heroes unlocked, and a boatload of cash and skill points so getting the requisite skills is not a big deal.

Has anyone done this quest with just H&H and have some great advice and strategy? If I need seperate builds for each boss/level, that's fine. I tried bringing Frozen Soil on a couple of /Ranger heroes, but it tended to die fairly quickly, and I was still getting overwhelmed.

Slasher of Darkness · Aug 30, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

I did it H/H, but I was a melee, derv, and my strategy was bringing 1 MM, 2 Triple Heat nukers with SH, one of em had FoMF and 2nd had Frozen Soil. For henchies I brought Lina, Mhenlo, Herta, and Cynn for moar AoE, what I basically did was, use a more defensive build than usually (usually I'm full offence...), flagged H/H back, PS on me, pull, and block them at a corner, letting my heroes nuke the hell out of them. Worked like a charm. But since you're a necro, I don't know how you can block them. Anyway that was how I did it, maybe you can get a friend to come and block corners for you, or somethig.

alexander92 · Aug 30, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

i managed to beat slavers on my rit with some wird 2 discord +1 ss build. also brought frozen soil of course, and it was nm.If u now where are the spanws(i;m refering tot he toucher guys here) and how to pull corectly it isnt very hard,at least on nm since i havent tried h&h hm.Some key skills are swap to get the spirits away from duncan(careful not to kill them),one guy with signet of sorrow and maybe ss or spoil victor,frozen soil to stop the stone sumits from rezzing; if u can get to duncan u need to die at his feet, place the signet of sorrow necro in the corner at the bottom of the stairs and have another hero keep prot spirit on him and the henchman should be ok healing him.Signet and sorrow and ss/sv should eventualy kill the guy.Since you're a necro you should be able to play a discord yourself which should make blowing up stuff faster.I'd take you move like a dwarf and,the ebon assasin and finish him to kill the stone sumit defenders and priests as fast as i can .If you can kill those and keep the others from rezzing them you'll be just fine.

Jeydra · Aug 30, 2009, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Normal mode the four prerequisite bosses. Rand is the easiest, any standard build (e.g. Discord) should work against him. Thommis is slightly harder, but should still fall to standard builds. Selve takes some tinkering - you'll be up against LoS problems, and by the time you get to him you're not likely to have many minions. Run two Rits here, and be sure to pull once you get to him - there're lots of patrols. Forge is the hardest of the four. Again I suggest running two Rits, the same builds will work but you'll also need to flag heroes apart before you aggro and execute some long pulls (maybe).

With Duncan you'll have to work in Hard Mode. Again run the two Rits; the hardest fight is the very first one and you can't get bodies before it. Micro spirits before you aggro if you have to - if you wipe, the subsequent battles get a LOT harder thanks to the MMs. You will need Swap, so make sure you have one copy. If you're using the Signet of Sorrow method, then you will also need a player-controlled copy of Prot Spirit - work from there.

Also take a look at this thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10394677.

For your bar, the Moloch bar should work very well, I'll leave him to elaborate on the details.

TheDragonmaster · Aug 30, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

I H/H:ed it all in NM in one go with same builds: Sabway, Rit switched for SV Blood Curses support (for Duncan in the end), I was BHA Ranger (with Swap).

For Duncan, I swapped spirits to a corner, then flagged the Blood necro so it could spam Duncan down, with the MM keeping PS up on the Blood. Nice and simple.

It should work in HM for Duncan too, but a Spirit Spam bar is probably better if you can play the Necro yourself (and go SoS spam).

nunix · Sep 03, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Well this is still not working.

1) Less jargon, please? Coming back to the game after a year+ absence. I need a template code if you want to tell me to use some particular build.

2) I am having trouble with the regular spawn fights, I can't even GET to a boss. Boss strategies are not helpful here!

2a) I cannot deal with these dwarf bastards.

3) I've tried both the basic Sabway and Discordway team builds available on pvx.wikia.com. As-is, I can't get past the third or fourth group in the Justicar/Rand zone.

4) This is in normal mode. Yes, I suck.

Discordway worked the best, with me as N/A, but without any way to put down Frozen Soil, it was endless battles.

I switched out the "Curses Resto" N/Rt for a Rt/R, in order to put down Frozen Soil, and gave him Consume Soul. This kept some of the rezzing down, but I still stalled on the same group I always do.

I'd be happy to do this in a regular group if I could FIND a regular group of real people to do it, but this seems impossible, so either I H&H this or I never complete it, which will make me a sad panda. Please help. ;_;

Jeydra · Sep 03, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

If it's Normal Mode you shouldn't need Frozen Soil.

Pull them. Pull the mob to the limits of their aggro range and fight them there. Make sure you are fighting only one mob because I really don't see why Discordway / Sabway would fail against a single mob in Normal Mode. Can't say more without screenshots.

If you really can't do it I can help you with the dungeon. Just message me next time you see me online - I might not be free but I'll try to make some time.

nunix · Sep 03, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If it's Normal Mode you shouldn't need Frozen Soil.

Pull them. Pull the mob to the limits of their aggro range and fight them there. Make sure you are fighting only one mob because I really don't see why Discordway / Sabway would fail against a single mob in Normal Mode. Can't say more without screenshots.

Hmm, I must be doing something terribly wrong then. Which doesn't surprise me at all.

I'll give it a couple more tries this weekend. Is the idea that you kill things so fast that the summit don't have time to rez? I may just need to prioritise and interrupt a little better...

Jeydra · Sep 04, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Yes you kill them so fast they don't have a chance to res. Or, you kill them, they res, and you kill them again.

What are the bars on you + your heroes?

nunix · Sep 04, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes you kill them so fast they don't have a chance to res. Or, you kill them, they res, and you kill them again.

What are the bars on you + your heroes?

The bars are these, no modifications to the heroes. Henchmen were Devona, Talon, Mhenlo, and Lina.

For my (player) build, I added rez sig, Signet of Sorrow, Signet of Lost Souls, and Rotting Flesh.

On my last run I managed to get to Justicar Thommis, but stalled against the huge amount of minions. I'm thinking maybe bringing Verata's Aura to deal with that, and maybe just cheap out and bring consumables as well.

EDIT: Well! Managed to clear Thommis' stage. That sucked. -.- The Rand half of the map was no problem, but there's a few spots getting to Thommis (including the mobs attached to him) that just rack up the DP every time. Think I managed to win mostly by exhausting the enemy rez sigs. -.- I'll have to try and dig up some replays or something of the levels. Selvetarm looks like a Greater Conflagration + Winter setup to deal with all the damn fire...

I wound up slotting Verata's Aura instead of Signet of Lost Souls, but I don't think it really made a difference. The range on it sucks.

Jeydra · Sep 05, 2009, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Wow I didn't know the build on Wiki has Masochism on a healer ... I strongly suggest you remove Masochism on the Life Resto and bring something else - e.g. Putrid Bile or Death Pact Signet. I gave Masochism a try on healers and it works worse. Not sure why, the practical results just don't match up to not having it.

There's a lot to improve on your own bar. You are a Necro, you should not have too much energy problems. Again Moloch would be the best person to advise you on what to bring, but since he hasn't posted I'll do it. Try:

12 Curses
10 Deadly Arts
8 Soul Reaping

Mark of Pain
Barbs
You Move Like A Dwarf!
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Finish Him!
Rend Enchantments (you will face Shield of Regen / Spirit Bond in Slaver's - this really helps)
Two optional - Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear, etc. If you're using these you can take them off the heroes for whatever else you want on them (e.g. Rotting Flesh, more Putrid Biles, etc)

Your henchmen picks need some work. Melee henchmen are terrible; their AI is bad. Do not use them. You have two N/Rt's, you do not need another two Monks. Do not use two as well. I recommend Mhenlo since Lina is a Prot Monk who doesn't know how to prot (AI is like that). Use three damage sources of your choice, I'd suggest Cynn + Hertha + Lo Sha but you can use Aidan or Zho if you prefer.

Selve is entirely doable with Discordway, you do not need to change builds. Just be careful about one thing: when you finally do approach Selve himself you're not likely to have any minions, so be careful and pull.

nunix · Sep 05, 2009, 03:29 AM // 03:29

I think the Masochism was to boost up Discord damage and minions + some extra energy management.. but it'd certainly explain why their survivability tended to be low and they died first. -.-

Heh, Mark of Pain + Barbs has actually been on my skillbar for the character's entire career (Mark of Pain is probably my favourite skill in the game), but I left it off since I was just following the wiki build.. I'll put 'em back on and see about enchantment removal (might put that on a hero and take Enfeebling Blood for myself, another favourite).

re: henchmen: I was having such a terrible time I figured more healers would help, since I was trying to use Discord for most of the damage anyway, and melee to soak up some damage. I'll swap 'em out for your suggestions, though, thanks!

Jeydra · Sep 05, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

I know Masochism worked well (for me anyway) on the MM, but not on the N/Rt.

Also, massing defense is most effective in PvE if you're not facing healers. That way you can deal some residual damage and eventually all the monsters die. The Stone Summit mobs you are facing in Slaver's not only have healers, they have effective healers running powerful builds. You can outlast them, but it will take quite a while.

There's something else. More healers does not mean your team lasts longer on the battlefield, at least not in the most effective sense of the word. My friend once told me that two Monks is twice one Monk, but three is just 2.5x one Monk. I agree. If you just have lots of Monks (and N/Rt's are essentially Monks) they will overlap what they're supposed to be doing like cast Patient Spirit on one target, overhealing + wasting energy collectively. If you want to play defensively, the way to do it is to have multiple layers of defense. Example: Ward Against Melee + Blinding Surge + Enfeebling Blood + Reckless Haste + Defensive Anthem would be five different methods of keeping melee damage down (and way overkill).

When using Discordway your meatshields are the minions, and the Vanguard Assassin (this is the #1 priority spell to cast). Melee henchmen and heroes are simply not worth running. A human Warrior is a great asset, but the AI not only selects targets badly, it goes into Healing Signet in front of a bunch of angry mobs ...

Xenomortis · Sep 05, 2009, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Try:

12 Curses
10 Deadly Arts
8 Soul Reaping

Mark of Pain
Barbs
You Move Like A Dwarf!
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Finish Him!
Rend Enchantments (you will face Shield of Regen / Spirit Bond in Slaver's - this really helps)
Two optional - Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear, etc. If you're using these you can take them off the heroes for whatever else you want on them (e.g. Rotting Flesh, more Putrid Biles, etc)

I would recommend Mindbender over Finish Him. That finishing spike is often unnecessary and only reduces potential MoP triggers.
Although, I may eat my own words if I actually try this out in Slaver's, given that a finishing spike can be necessary to put an enemy down there.
You also forgot to add Assassin's Promise to that bar, giving you one optional.

Enfeebling Blood is useful, but if you're facing hex removal take Reckless Haste or Shadow of Fear with Mindbender (use them as cover or fish hexes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Wow I didn't know the build on Wiki has Masochism on a healer ... I strongly suggest you remove Masochism on the Life Resto and bring something else - e.g. Putrid Bile or Death Pact Signet. I gave Masochism a try on healers and it works worse. Not sure why, the practical results just don't match up to not having it.

Meh, I still don't get putrid bile, but I agree it'd be better than Masochism. I'm still thinking that Discord teams sell the MoP caller bar short, especially in the first fight when you don't have minions up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Your henchmen picks need some work. Melee henchmen are terrible; their AI is bad. Do not use them. You have two N/Rt's, you do not need another two Monks. Do not use two as well. I recommend Mhenlo since Lina is a Prot Monk who doesn't know how to prot (AI is like that). Use three damage sources of your choice, I'd suggest Cynn + Hertha + Lo Sha but you can use Aidan or Zho if you prefer.

This is important. Lina is terrible with her energy and very unreliable at protting. Mhenlo and another healer and Prot Spirit on a couple of heroes is fine.
I myself don't like Lo Sha. His skills do not complement yours very well. He has very little shutdown, is not very durable and only provides two hexes that could divert hex removal (Ineptitude doesn't really count). Zho has two interrupts and Broad Head Arrow, provides physical damage to trigger Mark of Pain and is more durable.
Herta is an obvious choice - defensive wards and decent offensive capabilities.
Cynn is growing on me; at first I was doubtful (fire damage is generally poor), but the damage done is usually sufficient and Meteor Shower is wonderful when it goes off correctly. My only complaint is that she has no method of causing Burning.

This is more theorycraft on my part. I've never H/Hed anything in Slaver's nor have I really tried. I might recommend Fevered Dreams* over the AP-MoP/Caller build, but I'm not sure how well it would work with Discord. You're weaker offensively (but usually you're sufficient) but you defang a lot of the enemies and can usually keep healers, physicals and offensive casters in check.
You should be ok providing the conditions for Discord, particularly if your heroes have some hexes of their own.

*
12+1 Soul Reaping
12 Illusion
3+1+1 Curses

Fevered Dreams
Fragility
You Move Like a Dwarf
Finish Him
Cry of Pain
Enfeeble
Rip Enchantment**
Signet of Lost Souls

**If you need the enchantment removal much more than the extra condition, take Rend Enchantments.

nunix · Sep 06, 2009, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Well, switching henchmen seems to have had the biggest effect, cleared out Selvetarm's level today. Went with Mhenlo, Herta, Cynn, and Zho. Went almost perfectly, except for a couple of trouble spots (dungeon key room, then the first instance of chained clerics, then another instance of chained clerics) which were learning experiences, and I probably won't make those mistakes again. Selvetarm himself was a problem, and I finished it out at 60% DP. No points for style, but at least I cleared it, even if it was mostly by attrition and exhausting the dwarfs' signets. Those Warders with Churning Earth are really horrible.

I kept the builds mostly the same, put.. something else on Olias than Masochism but I can't remember what. I took a couple of enchantment-removal spells but never really used them. I definitely missed having Rotting Flesh for some of the dwarf groups. Skipped on Mark of Pain because there just wasn't enough physical damage to really make it shine, things either died too fast or not at all (and this time, they mostly just died too fast).

"Finish Him!" was most definitely useful, so I think I'll keep that on. Oddly enough, Signet of Sorrow was not so great, tho a little useful against Selvetarn, so maybe I'll drop that, drop my Soul Reaping down, and try and come up with something else. The trouble spots are the first fight and any post-wipe fights, since there's no minion build up yet. And every now and then there are a bunch of dwarfs that just beat the crap out of me.

Not sold on Zho. Eve might be good for energy and enchantment removal. Will have to play around with things and see.

Kinda dreading Forgewright's level; I wound up taking all three ranger heroes with Barrage, pets, and interrupts, and went Greater Conflagration + Winter, for the Catacombs of Kathandrax to deal with the fire damage. If there's only one Burning Spirit at a time should be fine, but more than one and I can just see the wipes.. party's all casters/ranged and tend to clump together. =/ Also, Cynn's all fire, so while she'll be good against dorfs, not sure about the initial fire monster groups.

Jeydra · Sep 06, 2009, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You also forgot to add Assassin's Promise to that bar, giving you one optional.

Lol AP bar without Assassin's Promise

I say keep Finish Him! in Slaver's because their Monks are just so strong. Without Finish Him! there's a much better chance you miss Assassin's Promises. Actually even with Finish Him! you can easily miss APs, so be careful with them.

The Warders are dangerous yes. You've got a few options. You can kill them first - together with the Summoners, they are the most dangerous of the Summit. You can interrupt them (you do have You Move Like A Dwarf!). You can treat them as Burning Spirits (below) and flag heroes / henchmen apart. Or you can take the AoE yourself. With this method, you flag heroes far back, put Prot Spirit on yourself, and aggro. Highlight the Warder and see what he's casting. If he's using Churning Earth or Sandstorm, kite sideways for the spell to finish, then pull back to your heroes. You've blown the AoE spell and given you time to pressure out the mob.

Signet of Sorrow is a bad skill. Its only real use is to kill Duncan. Otherwise it's, what, 80 cold damage with 30s cooldown? Even with Assassin's Promise it's plain bad, especially on someone with as powerful energy management as a Necro. Don't use it.

The key to taking out the Burning Spirits in Forgewight is careful aggro. Give them the chance and they will annihilate you!! Execute pulls as much as you can. Flag heroes and henchmen apart before you engage Burning Spirit / Flowstone mobs - this part is absolutely essential. Interrupt Searing Flames / Rodgort's Invocation / Savannah Heat if you can - that's when YMLAD! is so useful. Spam as many summons as you can; every nuke that goes to a summon will not go to you. Don't use Cynn in the dungeon, her fire damage is wasted on the Burning Spirits.

One more thing. Pay close attention to when to pull back and disengage. It's much, much better to avoid a wipe than to risk one; especially if the mobs have MMs. If nobody is dying you can be pressured out (no Soul Reaping). Some key indicators it's time to pull out: you missed an Assassin's Promise. There are lots of red dots homing in on you on the minimap. Your heroes have very few or zero minions left. You've already suffered a few deaths and / or red bars are dropping dangerously low. If this happens flag your heroes away, KD whoever is in range with YMLAD, and get the heck out of there.

Forge is the hardest of the four bosses before Duncan, so good luck with him.

nunix · Sep 07, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Forgewight was no problem!

Henches: Lo Sha, Zho, Mhenlo, Herta.

player bar: Assassin's Promise, EV Assassin, YMLAD!, Finish This!.. and then Dancing Daggers, Disrupting Dagger, Augury of Death, and Iron Palm. Soul Reaping 16 + Deadly Arts 12

Replaced Masochism on the N/Rt healer with Rip Enchantment.

I figured since I was already dumping at least 9 points into Deadly Arts, I should max it out and see what else I could use. The attacks were useful at different times, particularly against the boss. I didn't have a whole-party wipe at all in Forgewight's level (although it came REALLY close a couple of times), and even got to the boss with full morale boost on everyone. Boss was a little iffy thanks to his dorf bodyguard, but after a couple of half-wipes, got those taken care of, and then Forgewight himself was a chump.

I was feeling so good, in fact, I just went straight to Duncan's level. Getting to Duncan is no problem. But those spirits... argh. I'd like to bring a bunch of Ritualists with Consume Soul, but then there's still the whole mess of spawns in the level to deal with, so it'd be a whole other build setup. I know Swap is the usual method of dealing with 'em but I dunno. Also it seems like the Restless Dead endlessly respawn in there...

EDIT: couple more Duncan attempts, including an hour+ trip which involved tediously moving spirits.

Screw this. I'll pay someone to run it. I cannot believe how stupidly un-fun this is. I'm okay with a fair fight, but effectively-immortal spirits + return-100%-of-damage is too gimmicky, and I just don't care anymore. I cannot stand the thought of having to run across Verdant Cascade AGAIN, fight my way to Duncan AGAIN, just to TRY OUT a build strategy.

I'm so bitter. ;_;

Jeydra · Sep 07, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Killing Duncan is so easy, getting to him is the hard part ...

Exactly how was asked and answered in the thread I linked above, do read it. Of course you can choose to get a run and help someone else make money, up to you.

Grats on the successful H/H's by the way, next do it in Hard Mode!

nunix · Sep 09, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Wound up clearing it tonight with a 4-man PUG + my Discordway heroes + Herta. Others were a Savannah Heat E/Mo, a non-elite bonder Mo/Me, and a Interrupt/Smite Me/Mo. We just relied on sacrificing Herta and me using Signet of Sorrow in the end. Lame, and boring, and cheap, but it's a stupid gimmicky fight and I don't care. =p

That doesn't qualify the H&H requirement I originally had, but I was able to hench it through the first four fights thanks to you guys (Discordway + Mhenlo + Herta + Zho + Cynn/Lo Sha, for those playing at home). So.. mission accomplished! Maybe we'll see some non-sab/discord builds also, but they work pretty well, so probably not. ;D

CoonerTheRed · Oct 05, 2009, 04:23 PM // 16:23

This is slightly old, but none of the above strategies mention the key to (IMO) taking down the stone summit, in either NM or HM: they have no hex removal. Taking long-lasting, high damage/degen hexes is a very effective strategy, in both NM and HM. Combining this with the note that most of their damage is melee-based, and most of their defense is enchant based, means a H/H build can easily wipe them even in HM without MMs (where their MMs will raise minions faster than your MM).

- VoR mesmer with Mirror of Disenchantment (wiping many spirit bonds), Drain enchant, Backfire, and multiple interrupts. Gwen gets a prot spirit as well, or can bring a well such as well of weariness if you're finding their MMs to be troubling.

- Lingering, SS, or Discord curse necro with melee shutdown. Shadow of Fear, Soul Barbs, enfeebling blood, enchant removal.

- Discord resto rit with weapons, PwK, etc.

Tag on the usual henchies (2x Monks, Earth Ellie, and Interrupt Henchie, notably not Lo Sha, whose hexes will screw up VoR). This gives you the combined power of shutdown for spamming monks and hard-hitting warriors, and discord for spiking them down quickly. You have to provide Frozen Soil here, no space for heros to take it, but that's usually no big deal.